system is unbelievable. awful concept to use. anyone over 350+ who plays someone lower than them has to humiliate them just to stay even. for example i played 12 ends with macska1952. i was rated 400 and he was 270 only 130 different. we played 12 ends and he won 11-9. i lost by only 2, yet i lost 15 points? if i played a 0, and lost by 2 i would only lose roughly 10 points, so how does that work? strongly suggested to change the rating calcutator. regards brb1397
rating calculator
Posted in
Curling
rating calculator
The rating system might not be perfect, but losing 15 points after you have been defeated in a 10 ender by a ~130 lower rated players does not seem to be very "unbelievably awful". If you lose 9-11 against a 0 rated player, your rating will be down -28 points.
2
The rating system basically forces you not to play with someone less than 240 and not playing more than two ends with someone less than 300 if you are around 400.
What "they" are still not getting is that Curling is about winning a game, no one cares what the end score is or if your quit early when you're behind.
Rake, you are right. "They" really know nothing about curling. Moderators of Flyordie maybe good billiard players, but definitely not the game of curling. In a sense, we are marginalized on this site.
The example you are presenting brb1397 is not very useful. Just because this is how the rating system should work. If you play 10 ends the winner should get a lot of points. The problem is however, if you would have won 11-9 you would probably lose rating. In curling winning a game is winning a game. I strongly suggest that if you win, you can't lose rating. This way you can keep this current rating system, because it then rewards winning 10 ends against an equal opponent, and not punishing you for playing with everyone who wants to enjoy a curling game with you.
The best thing though, would be that the winner of a game gets + points no matter what happens, and that the loser loses points or stays equal depending on the rating.
If a 400 rated player wins against a 0 in a 10end match. The 400 player should gain something like 2 rating points. If a 400 player wins against another 400 rated player. The winner should get 10 rating points. If a game ends in a tie, no rating shall be changed, or FlyOrDie will have to add the "extra end" for tie breakers. This should apply (extra end) only for 8 or 10 enders (perhaps also 6 enders).
The formula to calculate rating in curling should be changed! I will try to come up with a better formula then the one existing today, and maybe it can be an option what rating system you want to use; "Classic" or "Realistic". You may add an R (Realistic) from the IG options similar to S for skins.
My suggestion for rating is this:
The closer the rating of the players, the more rating can be gained. The loser shall lose as many points as the winner gains. If the rating points a player is supposed to recieve (win or lose) is not a whole number, the rating is rounded to the closest whole number.
A is player with highest rating (or you must apply negative values as well). A-B indicates rating difference.
If((A-B)<=50)
{
Winner gets 1*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If(100>=(A-B)>50)
{
Winner gets 0.9*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If(150>=(A-B)>100)
{
Winner gets 0.8*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If(200>=(A-B)>150)
{
Winner gets 0.6*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If(250>=(A-B)>200)
{
Winner gets 0.4*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If(300>=(A-B)>250)
{
Winner gets 0.25*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If(350>=(A-B)>300)
{
Winner gets 0.2*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If(400>=(A-B)>350)
{
Winner gets 0.15*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If(450>=(A-B)>400)
{
Winner gets 0.1*NOE (number of ends) points for winning
}
If((A-B)>450)
{
No player recieves points for winning
}
Yeah, not a bad idea Talent1. They need to get rid of the stupid blank end rule in the last end of a game. If it's blanked there's a draw to the button for two points?? Boy did that ever come out of the left field. I could see there being a draw to the button to decide a tie, but not to decide a blank end in points game? Yes in a skins game but that's totally different. There could be an option just like choosing the number of ends that if it's tied it's either: stays a tie, goes to a draw-to-the-button or play an extra end.
Rake, start another thread if you want to talk of a different bug. If you conflate the issues, it just gives excuses not to fix anything. These bugs have been with us for years already.
A significantly higher rated player should easily beat a significantly lower rated player (especially in a multi ender). If the rating system was that way, more and more player would choose to play only lower ranked players in order to get a few points (an issue that was also complained about many times), since they have not much to lose that way. The rating system is not a competition, we have "tournaments" if you want competitions. The idea behind the rating system is not about accumulating as much points as you can, but to reflect each player's level of skill somehow in the long run (even if some temporary rating changes might seem questionable after some matches). If "Curling is about winning a game", then why do you care so much for rating points? Why don't you care instead for winning the game? Play for winning the game, and finally you will get the rating you deserve.
2
@Operator: My point is that when you win you should never be "punished". Winning 80-0 is the same as winning 1-0 in curling. If the game is 10 ends and 9 of them are blanks, or one player wins all ends 8-0 is the same, if the same player wins. The 1-0 game should yield as many rating points as winning 80-0. Your point that more players would play lowrated players is totally wrong. If you look at my suggestion you will have to play a 6end game if you are 400 vs a 0 to get 1 point. This means you have to play 12 ends (and win) a day to keep your rating. Some may do this, but I would rather play vs someone at my own rating level. This is where my suggestion is even smarter. If you play against someone on your own level you are likely to play a close game. If you win a 6 end match vs someone with less than 50 rating apart from you, you will get 6 rating points. Therefore if you use my system which rewards winning 1-0 vs a player on your own level more than winning 80-0 vs a lowrated player, more players will play vs players on their level. Another great suggestion I will bring up now is to play unrated games. This would be games were rating is not changed no matter the result. This would also increase the number of played games dramatically, as people will not stop playing because they have are playing on lagging internet, or they don't want to play vs low rated players.
Again, Talent1, Free/unrated games is a different issue and should be another thread. Bad rating system is obviously the #1 issue for curling. If we bring all the other bugs and "wishlist" items here, nothing will be fixed. OPERATOR has said in the past "You guys don't know what you want" and then refused to fix anything. Yes, there are 100 other issues besides the rating/scoring, but please not here, not now. Please lets just get this one
most pressing
issue fixed first.
@OPERATOR: If a 400-rated player plays a 200 rated, he needs a 3:1 win ratio just to stay even. When you consider that "scoring 2" in any end with hammer is considered a "win" in real curling, you see how untenable the current "rating according to score" scheme is. If the 400'er had to win 3 of 4 games vs. that same 200'er, the situation is totally different. This is how ELO system is supposed to work. By the way, I have never seen any "rating to score" scheme anywhere but here.
Why is rating so important to some? Pat yourself on the back? I for one, would rather just play, and I do, for fun! Do you gain anything from 3 digits on a game that is hand/eye? What sorry lives you must lead if ''ratings'' on an online game consumes your time!
erjc, stop hassling people for "changing" the topic. It's all related. I was simply responding to "brb" And yeah. Winning by 10 in curling is no different than by 1 against any opponent. Why you might ask mister Operator? It encourages offensive play, i.e. In the last end, you're down 3. So instead of grinding out 2 maybe three to save some ratings points the result would be that players would go for the 3 or the 4 knowing they will lose points if they get any less. Also, for games that have no point in continuing we could end earlier and the result would be the same as if the game fully finished. The Operator's comment about a better player being able to beat a weaker player by a significant amount - presumably always - is a false statement. Some players strategy's conflict with others and the game ends up being a little closer even though they "should" be able to beat them by a lot.
I really like Talent1's proposal. Makes a ton of sense and would improve the game. And while we have the Operator's attention, I would also like table a discussion about how hammer is determined. Gone are the days of flipping a coin to determine hammer. The Canadian Curling Association, World Curling Federation, and World Curling Tour all use a draw to the button to determine hammer. Would be great to implement this. No sweeping like in skins format to break a carried over end. The above suggestions would bring this game even closer to being realistic and would be a welcomed improvement. Thanks for your time Operator. While it may seem like we are complainers, we all love the game and thank Flyordie for the hours of entertainment your site provides.
At the club level it's still a coin flip. Would be a good option like the number of ends. Random or Draw option.
@Operator: If losing points when winning is not punishment, then what is it? The concept of rating on here does actually allow more of the playing vs lower rated players to gain rating. If we want a rating system that is more correct for the game of curling, it must be that the game values winning over a close competitor more than how many games you play against low rated opponents. The point is not that everyone plays for rating, but many people keeps in their mind. For myself I have started playing a style of curling where winning is the only thing that matters. Most players will not play for winning, but actually play for losing as little as possible, if they are behind with 3 points or so. I think it would encourage the spirit of curling if the rating system changes (or can be added as an option), something like I proposed on the first page of this thread. The rating you get should not be decided of how much you win with, but rather that you win (1-0 or 10-0 is the same), and how many ends you were playing (A 10 end match shows the skill of players better than a 2 end match, and should therefore adjust the rating more). I believe this is the
only
proposal the curling community on FlyOrDie really wants, and it would be extremely nice by the site and valuable for both players and FlyOrDie. I think more players would appreciate the game of curling, and the spirit for players using your site would be enlightened. Talent1
Yup, it would change the game for the good. This rating system would work well for lawn bowls where shot totals break ties in round robin play. It'd be sweet if there was a bowls game on this site too.
the system should remain the way it is!!! you should all be grateful that this game was given to us to play!! it seems that there is moaning about every thing about the game . JUST GET ON WITH IT AND STOP YOUR MOANING !!
Ya know @strontiumdog, it's a shame you won't be able to cheat after the new update. It seems we're all in favour for it though. What a shame. Having to stop the biggest cheater on here...
You all play those "so called" lowraters! There`s only one player here right now who is worthy the crown, and that is Vinni Jones! He playes everybody who challenge him. Respect! I really miss the old days playing curling. I really hope you all can do something about the game. We all need a "fresh start".
It's not really about points, it's about letting people play high risk when they are down, because winning is everything. Taking 2 with hammer when you are down 3 is not enough, and should not give you rating when you lose.
the point is, if you are rated higher than someone (ex. 400 vs. 200) 400 wins 4-2, he should not lose, but not gain points, you shouldn't be penalized for winning a game. And make it so you have to win 30-0 for a +1 vs. a 0. this would work for guys like strontium dog, el quetzal, toptim, make them play real opponents.
Here's my two cents: I've been playing here for over 2 months now, and it is not a lot of fun when you're trying to play games, and if someone has a rating of say 400, and you're at 100, I have found that more often than not, your game request will be declined, and I don't blame these people, especially if the rating is important to them, because as it has been stated numerous times in this thread, the 400+ player doesn't really benefit unless they simply thrash their opponent. Another issue I have is if you can only find low ranked players or beginners to play, I will do it, just for the sake of having someone to play. Should I be punished because they get their single, and then quit after 1 end, not giving me a chance to have hammer? I think not. I more often than not will ask my opponent how many ends, because it will effect how I start/plan to play my game(keeping in mine that nothing comes up on their end - connection issues, have to leave randomly, etc.)however, not everyone speaks English - or whatever language, so that's an issue there which is no ones fault. On the positive side of these games with lower rated players, or 1 end games, that I am on the winning side - I shouldn't be given multiple rating points for the win. If I get lucky and happen to defeat someone higher than me, they shouldn't be punished for a bad game, or whatever. I have been over 200 rating points before, and I had one bad evening, and dropped a ton of points, and then I have a really good evening another time, and it takes forever to get my rating back up, unless I find beginner's who are terrible, and that's not fun.(again - going back to the first bit of the post, higher rated players don't seem to want to play lower players blah blah blah) I try to view my opponents profiles to see recent games, in hopes that they'll continue their minimum 2 end(or whatever) trend, because I don't want to play just 1 end at the risk of my rating going down - due to the fact that like I said at the beginning, people don't seem to want to play someone significantly lower rated than them, and it's understandable. I think a simple solution is this, give the winner 2 points, and the loser loses 2 points. It shouldn't matter what the score is, a win is a win, and a loss is a loss. You could maybe look at bonus points i.e if you win by more than 5, you will get an extra "X" amount of points, win by 10 or more you get a higher amount of bonus points. I will no longer be complaining about players quitting after 1 end if it suits their game, since I just subscribed for a year, so I do hope that there are a few changes to the rating of the game as well as how hammer is determined and how ties are broken. Anyway, there's my thoughts, hopefully you're not all asleep after reading it haha.
Also everyone consider this: "they" don't consider the players experience some have played many 1000's of ends and have low rating where they may be playing someone with higher rating who has not played but 1000 or so matches. Also win loss ratio is not taken into account. Just food for thought.